Would not have a clue

Magic band discussion - antennas, propagation, operating, etc
Forum rules
By registering any account on vklogger.com, you are accepting the Terms Of Use ("TOU").
The TOU may be viewed at: http://www.vklogger.com/tou.php

Would not have a clue

Postby vk3six » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:56 pm

All this talk about propagation.
I would not have a clue.

heard K6QXY yesterday and ZL's worked him.

All via multi hop eskip for sure. :roll:





cheers
Last edited by vk3six on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:14 am, edited 17 times in total.
vk3six
 

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby VK3OE » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:11 pm

Hello Steve,

Excellent comments, thanks Steve.

But what do "the experts" now say about the sudden increase in sunspots. As you said "nor come out of one so suddenly".
I await with great interest to see how the cycle 24 predictions stand now!!!

Andrew Martin
VK3OE.
Andrew
VK3OE/VK3OER
Science = hypothesis >> measurement >> Theory
VK3OE
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby ZL1RS » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:16 pm

... here is the recent plot of E51USA at just under 6000 km

It looks less like multi e's and has much more phase distortion and the frequency dispersal
not unlike that which occurs when signals are propagated by spread F
as per the K6FV model circa 1989.


Also consider that the E51USA/b transmitter is a 25 year old Motorola Maxar 2-way radio with a XT-4B beacon keyer board fitted inside (as supplied by the "6 Meter Beacon Project, Inc"). The whole thing is a bit wobbly stability-wise ...

It might be worthwhile to get a Spectrum Lab image of E51WL/b which is an Icom 706MK2g "audio keyed" via a computer soundcard interface. The two look quite different on the screen here ... but they are only 3000km and 4000km respectively and that is not comparing apples with apples as far as distance is concerned to VK3.

It is certainly very interesting stuff.

73, Bob ZL1RS
Bob, ZL1RS in the Bay of Islands at RF64vs
http://www.qsl.net/zl1rs
User avatar
ZL1RS
Forum Diehard
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Bay of Islands

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby DK1MAX » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:41 pm

Hi ALL,

we had the same discussion in EU abt frequent openings into JA June/July. In my opinion this was simple multi-hop ES. When we analyse the paths into JA there are no other active 6m station along that path. Sometimes OH5/7's are in via 1st E hop. The more distant QSOs made from CT/EA7 into JA it was reported from the CT/EA's that the band was open the 1st hop into PA/ON for them. And PA/ON working JA same time. Still talking SSSP?

Into NA it is similar from here. Some more northern lines cross OX as 2nd hop E and we regularely hear the OX beacon at a 4000km distance.

It was maybe some different thing when working OA4TT from here. I think it was a combination of E-layer and (spread/scattered) F propagation as the path travels so close to the magn. equator.

Sometimes we dont need to look for something new when old models are good and working. IMHO there is no such thing like SSSP.

HNY
DK1MAX
 

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby VK2SWL2 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:55 pm

Purely to add to the discussion and not promoting any theories here, late this morning there was quite a high MUF open from Numeralla in southern NSW to Queensland, extending all the way to TV Channel 7. The closest ionogram to the midpath is Brisbane, and I noticed a very smeary look to it for want of a better term. Often when SpE is running the propagation layer is nice and narrow. I will have to check with the others if the pictures they were seeing were getting noticeable distortion.

I am in no way suggesting Spread F wasn't responsible for the alleged SSSP, but simply asking if an E layer ionogram like this could produce a similar effect on the traces? 3SIX, did you happen to notice any traces on say the 4RTL beacon to see if it was nice and clean as well?

Image
VK2SWL2
Forum Novice
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:15 pm

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby VK3QI » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:57 pm

Hi,

That Ionogram isn't really of much help. All it shows is that the critical frequency for the E layer was up around 18 Mhz, which is pretty much as expected for this time of the year and time of day.

Sporadic E (which you claim allowed propagation up to Ch7 frequencies) is not evident on this Ionogram.

The widening of the trace is pretty normal for this time of the year and to some extent, seems to depend on the resolution of the particular ionosonde and its location.

The Hobart one in particular, often shows such widening.

FWIW, at the time you mentioned, there were very strong signals on 6 mx between VK3 (Melbourne) and VK4 (Brisbane).

Also notice the F layer reflection evident on the ionosonde, despite the strong E layer reflections.

Cheers

Peter VK3QI
VK3QI
Forum Diehard
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby VK3QI » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:13 am

Hi again VK2SWL2,

Reviewing the ionograms from yesterday (30/12) - 70 minutes earlier at 2320z (29 December!)

Now you are talking serious Elayer reflection up into the VHF region.

It will be interesting to see if there is a similar occurrence this morning (31/12).

Cheers

Peter VK3QI
VK3QI
Forum Diehard
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby vk3six » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:45 am

BEEP
I was wrong again.

Cheers
Last edited by vk3six on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
vk3six
 

Re: SSSP Multi es F2?

Postby ZL1RS » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:45 pm

OK Steve, I see we were referring to two different things on your Spectrum Lab screen shot of the E51USA beacon.

The beacon does wobble (see the two screen shots below), but I misunderstood the relevance/meaning of "spread" and "dispersal". I now understand that this the "grass" either side of the carrier (please correct me if I am still wrong).

Thanks for the image of the Vladivostok and Khabarovsk TV on 49 mhz ... that pointed out signal dispersal.


Brief transmission of single tone carrier from E51CG's IC-706.
(Rig in RTTY mode ... with some SSB below).
Image


E51USA beacon transmitter showing the "wobbly carrier".
(It also has a distinctive pattern to the wobble on each cycle of the ident).
Image


Of course these are on a different path/propagation mode to that referred to in your original posting.
The distance from here is only 3000km and no spread is evident in the above.


For interest's sake, here is Jack's OA4TT CW CQ signal.
(With some SSB in between CW CQs).
Image
Bob, ZL1RS in the Bay of Islands at RF64vs
http://www.qsl.net/zl1rs
User avatar
ZL1RS
Forum Diehard
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Bay of Islands


Return to 50 MHz

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest