6M JA-VK path...

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6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:44 pm

Curious to know about the JA-VK path on 6M...

1. What mode carried the signals on the afternoon JA-VK contacts recently (aTEP?).

2. Is there aTEP for the JA-VK path for the full sunspot cycle or only around maximum ?

3. Are there contacts to be made all year round or is it seasonal ?

4. Any other info ?
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK3AUU » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:07 pm

If you keep an eye on http://www.ips.gov.au/Satellite/2/1/5 you might get an idea of what is happening.
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:57 pm

VK3AUU wrote:If you keep an eye on http://www.ips.gov.au/Satellite/2/1/5 you might get an idea of what is happening.
David


Hi David,

Thanks. I have been looking at the JPL one. These give the here-and-now picture.

My questions were more general and cover seasons, years and cycles.

Any experience or info to add w.r.t. to my questions ?

Cheers
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK4WDM » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:28 pm

Have a look at some of the material on TEP by Roger VK2ZRH such as: 6m enthusiasts, see here: http://home.iprimus.com.au/toddemslie/aTEP-Harrison.htm and do a google search on TEP.

In Northern Australia TEP to JA occurs mostly Aug to Nov and March April. It is not dependent on the solar cycle but my experience is that opens are more frequent during cycle peaks and tend to extend over more months. For the last couple of years we have had JA (and other Asian openings plus KH6) for most of the year and sometimes for weeks on end, but they are often missed because they are so short. The trick is to monitor for beacons, TV (for instance 49.750MHZ) and data below the 6m band. The other important thing is to CALL CQ even when the band appears flat. If everybody just listens then openings will be missed.

Others will talk about openings in the southern states where they are less frequent.

73

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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK6OX » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:49 pm

Hi Steve,

6m is arguably the most enigmatic of all the spectrum that amateurs have access to. Wayne has given a brief insight into Northern VK conditions and has provided a very good background of Afternoon TEP (aTEP) courtesy of Roger (who has also written extensively about Evening TEP as well).

The modes that support propagation at 50MHz are many (aTEP, eTEP {also known by some as "spread F"}, Sporadic E {single and multi-hop}, F2 {also single and multi}, tropo, aurora, or a combination of modes etc.) and some of these MAY be suppressed or enhanced, depending on the disposition of the Sun and what it may have produced!

Problem is, you can't arbitrarily say after looking at foF2 maps or VTEC maps or even the time of year, that the band won't be open. Many fine DX contacts have been made over the years when the band has appeared "dead". As Wayne said, "Call CQ"...you may be surprised.

Others with more experience than I (a mere 35 yrs) may give you further insights into this most exciting and frustrating of bands. :D
73
Andy VK6OX

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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2ZRH » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:02 pm

Hi Steve,

I'd recommend what Wayne VK4WDM recommended . . . but then I would, wouldn't I? :D

To quote myself and answer your questions:
Afternoon TEP is generally experienced during the equinoctial months of March-April and September-October (whereas sporadic-E peaks in the summer months, with a minor winter peak and minimum at the equinoxes).

However, it has been observed as early as two months before and after the equinoctial months (i.e. January and May for the March 20-21 equinox, July and November for the September 22-23 equinox).

Solar maximum years brings more afternoon TEP openings, but openings never disappear during solar minimum.


However, to experience aTEP this far south requires a sporadic E extension. That is, for example, an Es cloud west of Brisbane, which would give your signal a skip to the vicinity of Townsville. A ground reflection there via aTEP takes you all the way to JA. This isn't speculation, it's what actually happens.

Thus endeth the lesson for today. :J
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:46 pm

Thanks all.

Most interesting ! The Es-extension part I hadn't thought of. I had thought that a path could exist between here (QF56ik) and Japan via TEP, but I see now the centre point is some 8 degrees above the equator meaning that, if it occurred, it would land above Japan.

This is another link I found useful (and it references your articles Roger)...

http://k9la.us/Trans-Equatorial_Propagation.pdf

Cheers
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:26 am

I don't know whether this will be helpful - but I should perhaps mention that I have an ulterior motive for asking about the JA-VK path...

I am pondering how I might operate on the 6M band. For various reasons I don't want to put up a rotatable beam at a manly height, but I could put up a fixed beam at a modest height (~6m). At the moment I have a simple setup of a dipole @ 3.55m fixed N-S (from the Logger you can see I heard a JA on this). The dipole should be OK for VK Es I think. However I am looking for a longer 'season' on 6M. I realise that, according to many sources, I will be mostly listening to white noise - but if some occasional propagation to JA was available at any time (not just sunspot peak) I would consider the investment in a fixed beam worthwhile.

It strikes me that there are quite a few ops who have been on 6M for a considerable length of time and there must be heaps of data about the prevalence or otherwise of openings to JA. Of course there is much to read about specific spot cases and records, etc. What I am interested in would be a plot over time (years) of the number of contacts - especially around -35 South. This data must be in the many logbooks but not aggregated. Without this aggregation I am left with spot evidence.

I confess to being a data junkie - data is gold and is the best antidote to our natural ideological view of the world. I am a 6-sigma green belt and have a few funny stories to tell about the attitude individuals have to data...

Cheers
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK4WDM » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:57 am

There are basically two types of 6m operators, the guys who look for the weak signal stuff and have big beams, a carefully-crafted station, and are extremely skilled. They can wring a contact out of a mere sniff of signal (usually CW).

Then there are the "journeyman" ops who work plenty of stations when there are strong openings via TEP and/or Es (or even F2 during sunspot cycle peaks).

I would put my self in that category. I have a four element rotatable yagi at 8m high and a triband VHF vertical. When the bands are open I can work JA, other Asians, KH6, ZL and all of VK using 100w' and quite often the vertical is as good, and sometimes better (especially with Es) than the beam. During the peak of the last SS cycle I worked heaps of Europeans and even long path into Sth America with a seven element yagi and 100w, and into Europe on the vertical.

My suggestion to you would be to use a vertical first and get used to the band, but beware, 6m is very addictive :shock: and you can go :crazy:

Re data, I am sure that you will have fun talking to Roger VK4ZRH. There is certainly a need for collection, analysis, and publication of data in AR (I am a research scientist in health and medicine and I know the value of data :D ).

73

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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:53 am

VK4WDM wrote:Then there are the "journeyman" ops who work plenty of stations when there are strong openings via TEP and/or Es (or even F2 during sunspot cycle peaks).

That would be me also.

VK4WDM wrote:...but beware, 6m is very addictive :shock: and you can go :crazy:

Yes - I know - my first station in 1967 was on 6M AM (10W) as can be seen on my QRZ page. One minute you had white noise (actually - where I was at the time on Saturday morning it was mostly lawnmowers and traffic ignition noise) and the next minute it was massive signals from interstate overloading the receiver. I can still recall what that felt like some 40 years later.

Cheers
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK3ZAZ » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:05 pm

VK2XV wrote:Curious to know about the JA-VK path on 6M...

1. What mode carried the signals on the afternoon JA-VK contacts recently (aTEP?).

Allegedly TEP

2. Is there aTEP for the JA-VK path for the full sunspot cycle or only around maximum ?
Almost full, worked JAs from VK3 from 1979 through to 2005 every year but not from 2005 to 2008


3. Are there contacts to be made all year round or is it seasonal ?

Appart from a lull if you lived in TE ZONE in Broome Darwin and Townsville I imagine you could work a JA every day if that's your wish.

4. Any other info ?


Nope whats not known about the JA VK 6M path???

If I was fortunate enough to live in the north which I choose not to do I would chase 2M ASIAN dx not 6M JA dx.
Even UA0 has 2M, who has even tried to set up a qso to RUSSIA?



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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK4WDM » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:30 pm

Hi Steve

I would chase 2M ASIAN dx not 6M JA dx.
We do, and there is increasing interest on both ends. Unfortunately the VK4 2m "sweet spot" is probably further inland from the coast. Another difficulty is agreeing on frequencies to listen on as the band plans are not the same.

I have heard JA's on 2m twice. Both times they were local stations talking to each other and I could not break in.

I work a lot of Asians on 6m because I just like talking to other hams anywhere, anytime.

73

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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:56 pm

Had a search amongst the archive boxes for my old logbooks. I had an inkling I had been on 2M SSB before and one logbook shows activity on 144.1 MHz circa 1978. Best DX was to Newcastle using 5W to an unknown antenna.

More surprising was to find JA contacts on 6M at that time - obviously my memory is going as I thought I had only heard JAs, not actually worked them. In fact I worked 6 JAs inside an hour with 80W SSB to a homebrew 8-el LPY in November 1978 all near 52.005 MHz. The VKs worked at that time (VK6OX seems to be the only one seen now on the logger so far) clustered a bit further up from 52.017 MHz to 52.050 MHz. It vaguely comes back to me now - I think a TS520S with TV-506 xverter and a linear(?). Looking at the sunspot record, that time was only halfway-up to the Cycle 21 peak - so here is data I didn't think I had... :oops:

I might even be able to find QSL cards from earlier at my first QTH in the late 1960s to early 1970s when operating 6M AM to a 2-el quad...

Cheers

P.S.

Logbook entry: 27/1/1979 - VK6OX Andy in Carnarvon RS57 both ways - 52.050 MHz

Andy was using TS520S 8W to 5-el yagi @ 25 feet on top of a 100 foot high sand dune...
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:22 am

VK2ZRH wrote:However, to experience aTEP this far south requires a sporadic E extension. That is, for example, an Es cloud west of Brisbane, which would give your signal a skip to the vicinity of Townsville. A ground reflection there via aTEP takes you all the way to JA. This isn't speculation, it's what actually happens.


Roger,

I have had the opportunity to experience that first-hand in the last couple of days. I use these two webpages...

http://www.ips.gov.au/HF_Systems/6/5

http://www.ips.gov.au/HF_Systems/1/2/1

On the second of the two (http://www.ips.gov.au/HF_Systems/1/2/1) I look for the yellow E line for Brisbane. Peaks in that line have corresponded to hearing JA, a BA4 and FNQ stations...

Brisbane_Es.gif
Peaks in foE correspond to hearing stations to the north...

I notice also that there was an a peak around midnight local...

Brisbane_Es_2.gif
Peak at midnight local...
Brisbane_Es_2.gif (2.83 KiB) Viewed 890 times

Thanks for info - keep the lessons coming...
Steve VK2XV/VK2ZTO
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK6OX » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:54 am

VK2XV wrote:Had a search amongst the archive boxes for my old logbooks. I had an inkling I had been on 2M SSB before and one logbook shows activity on 144.1 MHz circa 1978. Best DX was to Newcastle using 5W to an unknown antenna.

More surprising was to find JA contacts on 6M at that time - obviously my memory is going as I thought I had only heard JAs, not actually worked them. In fact I worked 6 JAs inside an hour with 80W SSB to a homebrew 8-el LPY in November 1978 all near 52.005 MHz. The VKs worked at that time (VK6OX seems to be the only one seen now on the logger so far) clustered a bit further up from 52.017 MHz to 52.050 MHz. It vaguely comes back to me now - I think a TS520S with TV-506 xverter and a linear(?). Looking at the sunspot record, that time was only halfway-up to the Cycle 21 peak - so here is data I didn't think I had... :oops:

I might even be able to find QSL cards from earlier at my first QTH in the late 1960s to early 1970s when operating 6M AM to a 2-el quad...

Cheers

P.S.

Logbook entry: 27/1/1979 - VK6OX Andy in Carnarvon RS57 both ways - 52.050 MHz

Andy was using TS520S 8W to 5-el yagi @ 25 feet on top of a 100 foot high sand dune...


Wow, that brought back some memories Steve! Yes, the TS520S was coupled to a TV506. And the time of our QSO was 1003Z. 8)
73
Andy VK6OX

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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:21 pm

VK6OX wrote:Wow, that brought back some memories Steve! Yes, the TS520S was coupled to a TV506. And the time of our QSO was 1003Z. 8)

Hi Andy - 1003Z ? That would be 2103 AEDT (9:03pm). My log says 0903 AEDT = 2203Z.

Them were the days...
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK3ZAZ » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:22 pm

Heard some TV in PN53
Turned on wspr
went away for cuppa
2014-11-24 04:16 JH1GYE 50.294556 -15 0 PM96mi +37 5.012 VK3ZAZ QF12ag 8243 5122
2014-11-24 04:10 VK3ZAZ 50.294477 -17 0 QF12ag +40 10.000 JH1GYE PM96mi 8243 5122
2014-11-24 04:04 JH1GYE 50.294555 -15 0 PM96mi +37 5.012 VK3ZAZ QF12ag 8243 5122
as they say qed let your fingers do the walking
wspr tells you everything you need to know about paths, dates times, bands.
As distinct from old theories.
Note no e layer reports from any VK wspr station
10 watts each end..
you could probably duplicate this many many times if you so wished.
2014-11-11 07:40 JH1HRJ 50.294471 -13 0 PM95pi +37 5.012 VK3ZAZ QF12ag 8131 5052
2014-11-11 07:36 VK3ZAZ 50.294528 -16 1 QF12ag +43 19.953 JH1HRJ PM95pi 8131 5052
2014-11-11 07:30 JH1HRJ 50.294471 -21 0 PM95pi +37 5.012 VK3ZAZ QF12ag 8131 5052
2014-11-11 07:16 VK3ZAZ 50.294529 -26 1 QF12ag +43 19.953 JH1HRJ PM95pi 8131 5052
2014-11-11 07:10 JH1HRJ 50.294470 -12 0 PM95pi +37 5.012 VK3ZAZ QF12ag 8131 5052

type in 500 get 500 spots
type in 5000 get 5000 spots


[urlhttp://wsprnet.org/olddb?mode=html&band=all&limit=500&findcall=vk3zaz&findreporter=vk3zaz&sort=date][/url]
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Re: 6M JA-VK path...

Postby VK2XV » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:13 pm

VK3ZAZ wrote:wspr tells you everything you need to know about paths, dates times, bands.
As distinct from old theories.

Preaching to the converted - used WSPR some time back.

You have all that data and I presume, from your comments above, you have done some analysis to extract patterns and relationships and formed new theories to replace the "old theories". I would be interested to see that. Can you point me to any papers you have written on the subject?
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